interviews with Y.R. Chao

I’ve just stumbled across a book-length series of interviews with Y.R. Chao (Zhao Yuanren / Zhào Yuánrèn / 趙元任 / 赵元任). Even better: The complete text is available for free on the Web!

China Scholars Series: Chinese linguist, phonologist, composer and author, Yuen Ren Chao. An Interview Conducted by Rosemany Levenson, with an introduction by Mary Haas.

Wow. This is absolutely fabulous. The Bancroft Library of the University of California, Berkeley, deserves praise for this. Other works of interest to readers of Pinyin News are also available; but more about those later, in separate posts.

In case any readers are not familiar with Chao (1892-1982), he was the finest linguist ever to come out of China. He was also a supporter of romanization; he was even the lead creator of an ingenious if somewhat complicated romanization system for Mandarin: Gwoyeu Romatzyh. But there’s no way a few short sentences could do justice to the depth and breadth of Chao’s learning. To get a better idea of the man, read the introduction to the work linked to above — and then read the rest!

Enjoy!

Further reading: Y.R. Chao’s translation into Gwoyeu Romatzyh of the Humpty Dumpty section of Through the Looking-Glass, with Hanyu Pinyin and English

Taipei to stick with Hanyu Pinyin, despite pressure from central gov’t: mayor

Taipei Mayor Hau Lung-bin (Hǎo Lóngbīn / 郝龍斌) said on Sunday that Taipei will not switch from Hanyu Pinyin to Tongyong Pinyin, despite pressure from the Ministry of the Interior to do so.

Questioned by reporters at the wedding of Taiwan’s top “Go” player, Hau stressed that the Taipei City Government would continue to use Hanyu Pinyin despite the Interior Ministry’s push as it’s the most commonly used pinyin system in the international community.

“Taipei City has decided to continue using Hanyu Pinyin to connect with other countries in the world,” Hau said.

He suggested that the Interior Ministry consult with linguistic scholars and learn to respect their expertise when standardizing the romanization of Taiwan’s place and street names.

Yes, the MOI would do well to follow this advice — as would the Taipei City Government itself. Taipei’s stupid @#$%! InTerCaPiTaLiZaTion and lack of apostrophes are significant errors. And sometimes the lack of tone marks is a problem. And don’t get me started about Taipei’s “nicknumbering” system.

Taipei City is the only city in Taiwan that has adopted Hanyu Pinyin.

This is incorrect. Several cities around Taiwan use Hanyu Pinyin, such as Xinzhu and Taizhong, though none as consistently as Taipei.

TVBS is reporting that Taipei will be forced to switch, which I very much doubt will happen — certainly not before the presidential election in March 2008.

Nèizhèngbù de xíngzhèng mìnglìng yīdàn bānbù, bùyòng sòngjiāo Lìyuàn tóngyì, Táiběi shìzhèngfǔ zhǐyǒu zhàobàn de fèn, 5 nián qián, Mǎ Yīngjiǔ qiángshì zhǔdǎo Hànyǔ Pīnyīn, ràng Táiběi Shì chéngwéi tā yǎnzhōng, gēn guójì jiēguǐ de dūshì, 5 nián hòu, Nèizhèngbù dìngdìng fǎlìng qiǎngpò zhíxíng, gěi le yī jì huímǎqiāng.

TVBS also gives the cost for changing Taipei’s signs at NT$8 million (US$250,000).

The TVBS video gives lots of pictures of signs.

sources:

MOI and Tongyong Pinyin: update

I have spent many hours over the past few days trying to find out exactly what is behind the recent news story about the Ministry of Education and moves to expand Tongyong Pinyin by the end of the year.

I have sent out no fewer than five e-mail messages to various government officials but have received no responses. I have also made more than a dozen phone calls to various ministries and government-information lines. But nobody I spoke with knows what is going on. My wife helped by making some calls on her own. She was eventually able to get through to someone at the Ministry of the Interior who does have a clue about all this.

Here is basically what is happening.

On October 30, Taiwan’s Ministry of the Interior promulgated the government’s guidelines for writing place names (including not just town names but physical features, such as rivers, mountains, temples, bridges, etc.) in English and romanization: Yùgào dìngdìng “biāozhǔn dìmíng yì xiě zhǔnzé” (預告訂定「標準地名譯寫準則」) (MS Word document).

Most of the pages of this document are simply a list of townships and districts throughout Taiwan, as given in Tongyong Pinyin. But it also contains a few pages of general guidelines. Local governments and interested individuals (yes, that could include you, o reader) who wish to comment on these guidelines may do so before the deadline of Thursday, November 8. The question of Tongyong Pinyin vs. Hanyu Pinyin, however, is supposedly off the table, as the Ministry of the Interior must follow the administration in this — though I encourage anyone who writes the ministry to bring up the issue anyway. I will post contact information as soon as I get it.

To return to the matter of the promulgated document, these are the guidelines that Taiwan’s local governments are ordered to use, with local governments’ offices of land administration compiling lists of place names to be standardized within their jurisdictions and submitting these lists to the MOI’s Department of Land Administration (dìzhèng sī fāngyù kē / 地政司方域科).

If local governments reject Tongyong Pinyin and use a different romanization system, the MOI does not have the authority to compel them to switch to Tongyong. But the central government can and and almost certainly will exert pressure on them to toe the line.

Making matters worse for advocates of Hanyu Pinyin, the international standard romanization system for Mandarin, is the fact that many local officials — even in “blue” regions — do not believe they have autonomy in this matter, as I know from having spoken with several of them about precisely this topic. Nor, unsurprisingly, do they take the word of a foreigner over what they “know” to be “correct”: that they must use Tongyong whether they like it or not. As an example, the city of Jilong (”Keelung”), which is controlled by the anti-Tongyong “blues,” instituted a plan to standardize street names there with Tongyong Pinyin. Nor will most officials bother to look up the rule they are supposedly following — and which, BTW, I can’t show them because it doesn’t exist.

The recently promulgated proposal has extremely limited guidelines. These are most certainly inferior to the fuller guidelines for Hanyu Pinyin — to say nothing of the book-length supplementary guidelines for Hanyu Pinyin (Chinese Romanization: Pronunciation and Orthography and the Xinhua Pinxie Cidian) and carefully produced dictionaries in Hanyu Pinyin.

Probably the best thing I could say about the guidelines is a negative: At least they didn’t adopt Taipei’s StuPid, StuPid PolICy Of InTerCapITaLiZaTion.

The problem that is likely to affect more names than other deficiencies — other than the fundamental matter of Tongyong Pinyin, that is — is the recommended use of the hyphen. Basically, the guidelines call for a hyphen where Hanyu Pinyin would use an apostrophe: before any syllable that begins with a, e, or o, unless that syllable comes at the beginning of a word or immediately follows a hyphen or other dash.

The reason that is a big problem, beyond the failure to follow the standard of Hanyu Pinyin, is that hyphens cannot then be put to the good use they have in Hanyu Pinyin. Hyphens are often needed in signage because they are used in short forms of proper nouns, for example the correct short form of Taiwan Daxue (National Taiwan University) is “Tai-Da.”

Hyphens can thus help clarify names a great deal becuase they often indicate an abbreviation. Mandarin’s tendency toward Consider bridge names, in which the hyphen helps indicates the reason for the name:

  • not Huazhong but Hua-Zhong (for [Wan]hua to Zhong[he])
  • not Huajiang but Hua-Jiang (for [Wan]hua to Jiang[zicui])

Or the case given in the guidelines of 嘉南大圳. The recommendation there is for “Jianan dazun.” But giving “Jia-Nan” instead of “Jianan” would help clarify that this is something in Jiayi and Tainan counties.

The government guidelines’ failure to employ the hyphen in the same manner as Hanyu Pinyin is a major deficiency.

Taiwan should have Tongyong Pinyin’s orthography follow the well-established guidelines for Hanyu Pinyin. But the administration’s petty difference-for-the-sake-of-difference policy will likely rule out that course.

more on Taiwan’s new Tongyong move

This morning all three of Taiwan’s English-language newspapers ran the AP story on the Ministry of the Interior’s plan to expand the use of Tongyong Pinyin. (Bonus points to the copy editor at the Taipei Times who changed the original article’s sloppy “Taiwan will standardize the English transliterations of its Chinese Mandarin place names by the end of the year” to “The Romanization of Mandarin place names will be standardized by the end of this year.”)

I have made a few calls about this, but to little effect so far. Unfortunately, I haven’t had the time today to track down someone at the Ministry of the Interior who can give some definitive information about this.

Meanwhile, here’s another article. It gives a little more information: no intercapping (good), hyphens instead of apostrophes (bad), some screwed-up word parsing (bad).

But all of this sounds like old news. How this will be any different in implementation is still unclear.

Wàijí rénshì lái Táiwān gōngzuò huò lǚyóu, zǒng bèi Táiwān de dìmíng yì xiě gǎo de “wù shàsha,” jiéjú cháng yǐ mílù shōuchǎng. Nèizhèngbù 30 rì gōng bù “biāozhǔn dìmíng yì xiě zhǔnzé” cǎo’àn, míng dìng dìmíng yì xiě yǐ “yīnyì” wèi yuánzé, bìng cǎi “Tōngyòng Pīnyīn” wèi jīzhǔn, ruò dìmíng yǒu lìshǐ, yǔyán, guójì guànyòng, shùzì děng tèxìng, zé yǐ dìmíng xìngzhì fānyì, rú Rìyuè Tán yì wéi “Sun Moon Lake;” 306 gāodì yì wéi “Highland 306.”

Gāi cǎo’àn shì yījù “guótǔ cèhuì fǎ” dìngdìng, bìng nàrù Jiàoyùbù zhìdìng de “Zhōngwén yìyīn shǐyòng yuánzé” zuòwéi yì xiě biāozhǔn, dìmíng yì xiě fāngshì yóu dìmíng zhǔguǎn jīguān zìxíng juédìng.

Cǎo’àn zhǐchū, wèi bìmiǎn yì xiě zhě duì wényì rènzhī bùtóng, chǎnshēng yì xiě chāyì, tǒngyī xíngzhèng qūyù de biāozhǔn yì xiě fāngshì, shěng “Province,” shì “City,” xiàn “County,” xiāng-zhèn “Township,” qū “District,” cūnli “Village.” Jiēdào míngchēng yě tǒngyī yì xiě, dàdào “Boulevard,” lù “Road,” jiē “Street,” xiàng “lane,” nòng “Alley.” Lìrú Kǎidágélán Dàdào wéi “Kaidagelan Boulevard.”

Cǎo’àn míng dìng, biāozhǔn dìmíng de yì xiě cǎi tōngyòng pīnyīn, dàn dìmíng hányǒu “shǔxìng míngchēng” shí, yǐ shǔxìng míngchēng yìyì fāngshì yì xiě, rú Dōng Fēng zhíyì wéi “East Peak.”

Ruò shǔxìng míngchēng yǔ biāozhǔn dìmíng zhěngtǐ shìwéi yī ge zhuānyǒu míngchēng shí, bù lìng yǐ yìyì fāngshì fēnkāi yì xiě, rú “Jiā-Nán dà zùn [zhèn?]” yì wéi “Jianan dazun;” Yángmíng Shān yì wéi “Yangmingshan;” Zhúzi Hú yì wéi “Jhuzihhu.”

Lìngwài dìmíng yǒu dāngdì lìshǐ, yǔyán, fēngsúxíguàn, zōngjiào xìnyǎng, guójì guànyòng huò qítā tèshū yuányīn, jīng zhǔguǎn jīguān bào zhōngyāng zhǔguǎn jīguān hédìng hòu, bù shòu “shǔxìng míngchēng” xiànzhì, rú Yù Shān zhíyì wéi Jade Mountain; zhōngyāng shānmài yì wéi “Central Mountains.”

Cǎo’àn guīdìng, biāozhǔn dìmíng yì xiě shūxiě fāngshì, dì-yī ge zìmǔ dàxiě, qíyú zìmǔ xiǎoxiě, rú bǎnqiáo yì wéi “Banciao,” ér fēi “Ban Ciao” huò “Ban-ciao.” Dàn dìmíng de dì-yī ge zì yǐhòu de pīnyīn zìmǔ, chūxiàn a, o, e shí, yǔ qián dānzì jiān yǐ duǎnxiàn liánjiē, rú Qīlǐ’àn yì wéi “Cili-an,” Rén’ài Xiāng wéi “Ren-ai Township.”

Cǐwài, cǎo’àn yě tǒngyī zìrán dìlǐ shítǐ shǔxìng míngchēng, rú píngyuán, péndì, dǎoyǔ, qúndǎo, liè yǔ, jiāo, tān, shāzhōu, jiǎjiǎo, shān, shānmài, fēng, hé xī, hú, tán děng shíwǔ zhǒng yì xiě fāngshì. Lìrú, Dōngshā Qúndǎo yì wéi “Dongsha Islands;” Diàoyútái liè yǔ “Diaoyutai Archipelago;” Běiwèi Tān “Beiwei Bank;” “Ālǐ Shān shānmài” yì wéi “Alishan Mountains;” zhǔfēng yì wéi “Main Peak;” Shānhútán zhíyì wéi “Shanhu Pond.”

source: Yīngyì yǒu “zhǔn” — lǎowài zhǎo lù bùzài wù shàsha (英譯有「準」 老外找路不再霧煞煞), China Times, October 31, 2007

Taiwan to expand use of Tongyong Pinyin?

The Associated Press is reporting what appears to be an expansion of the Taiwan government’s monumentally misguided promotion of its Tongyong Pinyin romanization system.

No one is answering the phones at the Ministry of the Interior now, and I haven’t been able to find out more information on the Web site yet. But I’ll be following this closely.

The story follows, with a few of my notes in brackets.

Taiwan will standardize the English transliterations of its Chinese Mandarin place names by the end of the year, an official said Wednesday, after years of confusion stemming from multiple spellings.

An official from the Ministry of Interior said the island would use the locally developed “Tongyong,” system in its transliterations, rejecting use of mainland China’s [Hanyu] Pinyin system, and the once common Wade-Giles system, introduced by two Englishmen in the late 19th century.

Over the past decade [Hanyu] Pinyin has gained wide acceptance among foreign students of Chinese, even as Wade-Giles and other foreign systems have diminished in importance.

Taiwan’s Tongyong system is virtually unknown outside the island.

But the Interior Ministry official insisted that Tongyong was still a good choice for a standard transliteration system.

“In the past, diverse spellings have caused confusion, so we have decided to remedy the situation,” he said, speaking on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to talk to the press.

Multiple transliterations of place names have often caused confusion for non-Chinese-literate visitors to Taiwan.

For example, a busy shopping street in Taipei is variously rendered as Chunghsiao [in bastardized Wade-Giles — but no official signs on this street in Taipei use this system], Zhongxiao [in Hanyu Pinyin] and Jhongsiao [in Tongyong Pinyin — but no official signs on this street in Taipei use this system].

According to Ministry of Interior’s Web site, exceptions to the Tongyong system will still be allowed for some well known tourist attractions, including Jade Mountain in central Taiwan and Taipei’s Yangmingshan [Yangmingshan is the same in Tongyong Pinyin and Hanyu Pinyin, though it is properly written Yangming Shan].

source: Taiwan to standarize English [sic] spellings of place names, AP, via the International Herald Tribune, October 31, 2007

Street names in English translation: trend or error?

Taipei street sign reading '園區街 Park St.'Ah, Park Street: Taipei’s lovely tree-lined boulevard next to a wonderful oasis of well-manicured nature.

Nope.

Here, “park” refers to Nangang Software Park (Nángǎng Ruǎntǐ Yuánqū, 南港軟體園區), an area in eastern Taipei of new buildings housing mainly software-development and biomedical companies. The software park itself is a pretty nice place and looks fine; its surrounding area, however, is anything but green and leafy, comprising mainly dreary brick buildings and vacant lots.

But what’s odder than the name itself is that it appears in English rather than in the mix of Hanyu Pinyin (with StuPid, StuPid InTerCapITaLiZaTion) and English (e.g., St., Rd.) that has become standard in Taipei. Also odd is that at one end of the street the signs read “Park St,” but at the other end “YuanQu St.” This is a fairly new street name, as the software park is only a few years old.

Taipei street sign reading '園區街 YuanQu St.'

The flash on my camera helps reveal that the part of the sign reading “YuanQu St.” is pasted on top of something else — quite possibly “Park St.”

I spent about 15 minutes today getting my phone call to the Taipei City Government transferred from one desk to another before I was able to speak with someone who knew what she was doing. She stated that the Park Street version is in error and would be corrected to Yuanqu Street.

I really wish I’d asked for her extension number, because I’m certain to be making similar calls in the future.

New story in Pinyin: ‘Dashui Guohuo’ (‘After the Flood’)

I’m very pleased to announce that Pinyin Info has a new story in Hanyu Pinyin: “Dàshuǐ Guòhòu,” by Zhang Liqing. It’s available here in two versions: Pinyin alone and Pinyin with English translation (as “After the Flood”), so one doesn’t even have to know Mandarin or Pinyin to read this.

The story recalls a girlhood friend in China, not long after the end of the Second World War.

Zhang is an associate editor of the ABC Chinese-English Comprehensive Dictionary and has translated a number of important works into English, including Zhou Youguang’s The Historical Evolution of Chinese Languages and Scripts and Lü Shuxiang’s Comparing Chinese Characters and a Chinese Spelling Script — an evening conversation on the reform of Chinese characters.

Reviews of books on oracle bones, language and script, violence in China, etc.: SPP

Sino-Platonic Papers has rereleased the third volume in its series of book reviews: Reviews III (8.3 MB PDF).

This volume was first published in October 1991.

The main topics of the books in this volume are

  • Violence in China
  • Scientific Stagnation in Traditional China.
  • Oracle Shell and Bone Inscriptions (OSBIs)
  • Proto-Language And Culture
  • Language and Script
  • Reference Tools for Sinitic Languages
  • Literature and the Life of Peking
  • Religion and Philosophy
  • Words
  • The New World
  • “Barbarian” Business
  • South Asia
  • Miscellaneous

For those who hesitate to download such a large file without knowing which books were reviewed, you may consult the table of contents (small HTML file).