more on Taiwan’s new Tongyong move

This morning all three of Taiwan’s English-language newspapers ran the AP story on the Ministry of the Interior’s plan to expand the use of Tongyong Pinyin. (Bonus points to the copy editor at the Taipei Times who changed the original article’s sloppy “Taiwan will standardize the English transliterations of its Chinese Mandarin place names by the end of the year” to “The Romanization of Mandarin place names will be standardized by the end of this year.”)

I have made a few calls about this, but to little effect so far. Unfortunately, I haven’t had the time today to track down someone at the Ministry of the Interior who can give some definitive information about this.

Meanwhile, here’s another article. It gives a little more information: no intercapping (good), hyphens instead of apostrophes (bad), some screwed-up word parsing (bad).

But all of this sounds like old news. How this will be any different in implementation is still unclear.

Wàijí rénshì lái Táiwān gōngzuò huò lǚyóu, zǒng bèi Táiwān de dìmíng yì xiě gǎo de “wù shàsha,” jiéjú cháng yǐ mílù shōuchǎng. Nèizhèngbù 30 rì gōng bù “biāozhǔn dìmíng yì xiě zhǔnzé” cǎo’àn, míng dìng dìmíng yì xiě yǐ “yīnyì” wèi yuánzé, bìng cǎi “Tōngyòng Pīnyīn” wèi jīzhǔn, ruò dìmíng yǒu lìshǐ, yǔyán, guójì guànyòng, shùzì děng tèxìng, zé yǐ dìmíng xìngzhì fānyì, rú Rìyuè Tán yì wéi “Sun Moon Lake;” 306 gāodì yì wéi “Highland 306.”

Gāi cǎo’àn shì yījù “guótǔ cèhuì fǎ” dìngdìng, bìng nàrù Jiàoyùbù zhìdìng de “Zhōngwén yìyīn shǐyòng yuánzé” zuòwéi yì xiě biāozhǔn, dìmíng yì xiě fāngshì yóu dìmíng zhǔguǎn jīguān zìxíng juédìng.

Cǎo’àn zhǐchū, wèi bìmiǎn yì xiě zhě duì wényì rènzhī bùtóng, chǎnshēng yì xiě chāyì, tǒngyī xíngzhèng qūyù de biāozhǔn yì xiě fāngshì, shěng “Province,” shì “City,” xiàn “County,” xiāng-zhèn “Township,” qū “District,” cūnli “Village.” Jiēdào míngchēng yě tǒngyī yì xiě, dàdào “Boulevard,” lù “Road,” jiē “Street,” xiàng “lane,” nòng “Alley.” Lìrú Kǎidágélán Dàdào wéi “Kaidagelan Boulevard.”

Cǎo’àn míng dìng, biāozhǔn dìmíng de yì xiě cǎi tōngyòng pīnyīn, dàn dìmíng hányǒu “shǔxìng míngchēng” shí, yǐ shǔxìng míngchēng yìyì fāngshì yì xiě, rú Dōng Fēng zhíyì wéi “East Peak.”

Ruò shǔxìng míngchēng yǔ biāozhǔn dìmíng zhěngtǐ shìwéi yī ge zhuānyǒu míngchēng shí, bù lìng yǐ yìyì fāngshì fēnkāi yì xiě, rú “Jiā-Nán dà zùn [zhèn?]” yì wéi “Jianan dazun;” Yángmíng Shān yì wéi “Yangmingshan;” Zhúzi Hú yì wéi “Jhuzihhu.”

Lìngwài dìmíng yǒu dāngdì lìshǐ, yǔyán, fēngsúxíguàn, zōngjiào xìnyǎng, guójì guànyòng huò qítā tèshū yuányīn, jīng zhǔguǎn jīguān bào zhōngyāng zhǔguǎn jīguān hédìng hòu, bù shòu “shǔxìng míngchēng” xiànzhì, rú Yù Shān zhíyì wéi Jade Mountain; zhōngyāng shānmài yì wéi “Central Mountains.”

Cǎo’àn guīdìng, biāozhǔn dìmíng yì xiě shūxiě fāngshì, dì-yī ge zìmǔ dàxiě, qíyú zìmǔ xiǎoxiě, rú bǎnqiáo yì wéi “Banciao,” ér fēi “Ban Ciao” huò “Ban-ciao.” Dàn dìmíng de dì-yī ge zì yǐhòu de pīnyīn zìmǔ, chūxiàn a, o, e shí, yǔ qián dānzì jiān yǐ duǎnxiàn liánjiē, rú Qīlǐ’àn yì wéi “Cili-an,” Rén’ài Xiāng wéi “Ren-ai Township.”

Cǐwài, cǎo’àn yě tǒngyī zìrán dìlǐ shítǐ shǔxìng míngchēng, rú píngyuán, péndì, dǎoyǔ, qúndǎo, liè yǔ, jiāo, tān, shāzhōu, jiǎjiǎo, shān, shānmài, fēng, hé xī, hú, tán děng shíwǔ zhǒng yì xiě fāngshì. Lìrú, Dōngshā Qúndǎo yì wéi “Dongsha Islands;” Diàoyútái liè yǔ “Diaoyutai Archipelago;” Běiwèi Tān “Beiwei Bank;” “Ālǐ Shān shānmài” yì wéi “Alishan Mountains;” zhǔfēng yì wéi “Main Peak;” Shānhútán zhíyì wéi “Shanhu Pond.”

source: Yīngyì yǒu “zhǔn” — lǎowài zhǎo lù bùzài wù shàsha (英譯有「準」 老外找路不再霧煞煞), China Times, October 31, 2007

Taiwan to expand use of Tongyong Pinyin?

The Associated Press is reporting what appears to be an expansion of the Taiwan government’s monumentally misguided promotion of its Tongyong Pinyin romanization system.

No one is answering the phones at the Ministry of the Interior now, and I haven’t been able to find out more information on the Web site yet. But I’ll be following this closely.

The story follows, with a few of my notes in brackets.

Taiwan will standardize the English transliterations of its Chinese Mandarin place names by the end of the year, an official said Wednesday, after years of confusion stemming from multiple spellings.

An official from the Ministry of Interior said the island would use the locally developed “Tongyong,” system in its transliterations, rejecting use of mainland China’s [Hanyu] Pinyin system, and the once common Wade-Giles system, introduced by two Englishmen in the late 19th century.

Over the past decade [Hanyu] Pinyin has gained wide acceptance among foreign students of Chinese, even as Wade-Giles and other foreign systems have diminished in importance.

Taiwan’s Tongyong system is virtually unknown outside the island.

But the Interior Ministry official insisted that Tongyong was still a good choice for a standard transliteration system.

“In the past, diverse spellings have caused confusion, so we have decided to remedy the situation,” he said, speaking on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to talk to the press.

Multiple transliterations of place names have often caused confusion for non-Chinese-literate visitors to Taiwan.

For example, a busy shopping street in Taipei is variously rendered as Chunghsiao [in bastardized Wade-Giles — but no official signs on this street in Taipei use this system], Zhongxiao [in Hanyu Pinyin] and Jhongsiao [in Tongyong Pinyin — but no official signs on this street in Taipei use this system].

According to Ministry of Interior’s Web site, exceptions to the Tongyong system will still be allowed for some well known tourist attractions, including Jade Mountain in central Taiwan and Taipei’s Yangmingshan [Yangmingshan is the same in Tongyong Pinyin and Hanyu Pinyin, though it is properly written Yangming Shan].

source: Taiwan to standarize English [sic] spellings of place names, AP, via the International Herald Tribune, October 31, 2007

Chabuduo jiu keyi?

When it comes to signage and much else in Taiwan, the phrase chàbuduō jiù kěyǐ (差不多就可以) might qualify as the country’s unofficial motto. “Close enough for government work” is probably the best idiomatic translation.

The railway-station sign in this photo in many ways exemplifies this.

Hsinchu Jhubei Shiangshan

Rather than list all of the errors and oddities of this sign, I thought I’d let readers have a go at this one. How many errors and problematic points can you find?

Banqiao’s orificial signage

David, who for just a little while longer lives in the same Banqiao neighborhood as I, sent me a photo of a street sign in our highly populated but little-discussed city.

'Guanciao W. Rd.': streetsign in Banqiao, Taiwan, labeled in misspelled Tongyong Pinyin and English

The sign tells us this is “Guanciao” West Road. In Hanyu Pinyin this would be “Guanqiao.” Guanqiao? The only word in my biggest Mandarin-English dictionary under that spelling is guānqiào (關竅/关窍), which is defined as “orifices on the human body.” Hmm. Taiwan might have the questionable taste of having many a road still named after a dead dictator, but orifices?

This oddity is explained by the fact that Banqiao is simply continuing its tradition of typos — even on relatively new signs. (The style of the sign and the choice of Tongyong Pinyin both indicate this went up within the past few years.)

Guanciao (Guanqiao) should be Guancian. (In Hanyu Pinyin, 館前西路 is written Guǎnqián Xīlù.) It’s worth noting this is not a tiny lane but a road in a well-traveled part of town.

As long as I’m putting up yet another post with photos and doing further damage to my reputation of having one of the Taiwan blogosphere’s fastest-loading, least Turtonesque sites*, I might as well go ahead and add one more so I can mention something else about this sign.

Let’s look at the relative size of the Chinese characters and the alphabetic text. The majority of the letters are but one quarter of the height of the Chinese characters.

sign showing the relative percentages of the height of the letters/Hanzi on the sign

Although in this particular case the lettering might not be too small, this style often leads to nearly illegible romanization, especially on signs posted high above streets.

* Just in terms of the average number photos per post, that is. (But that’s in part because I’m a lousy photographer.) Congratulations, Michael, on reaching two thousand posts!

Banqiao signage SNAFU

Here’s an example of the mixing of romanization systems and addition of errors that used to be common in Taipei before the city switched to Hanyu Pinyin. These signs are on a corner in Banqiao, Taipei County, not far from Banqiao City Hall.

First, let’s set the scene. We have two types of signs, both with a mix of romanization and English. One set of signs gives street names; the other points toward places of possible interest.
establishing shot of signage (at one corner) discussed in this post

The blue-panel signage on the right represents something introduced during the term of the previous mayor, a member of the Democratic Progressive Party. And since the DPP backs Tongyong Pinyin for Mandarin, that’s the romanization system used most of the time on such signs. A number of the photos on these signs feature the previous mayor, who had relatively little recognition among the public since he had succeeded someone else’s term rather than being elected to his own. He put his photo on all sorts of things. But he failed to be elected to the city’s top spot. His challenger, the current mayor of Banqiao, spreads her name recognition by having her recycling speech broadcast from the city’s trash trucks.

photo of the top piece on a streetsign pole in Banqiao. It reads OK, now note the cap on the signpost. It reads “Ban ciao” in black letter. Although I spotted several of these today, I’d never seen any before, which would mean it’s very likely that a KMT-led city administration under a KMT-led county government is putting up new signs in Tongyong Pinyin, a romanization system the Kuomintang (Guomindang) opposes. (The KMT used to oppose Hanyu Pinyin as well, which is how Taiwan ended up with MPS2, the Tongyong Pinyin of the 1980s.) Similarly, Banqiao has relatively new signs in prominent places around the city that read (in a particularly clumsy script face) “Bravo Banciao.” (What exactly about Banqiao is worthy of such a cheer is not stated.) Even though the city administration is under the mistaken impression that it must use Tongyong (and it does suffer from this idea), that doesn’t mean it has to go around putting up new signage in this.

To get back to the cap, the likely story is that the transportation department had some leftover money in its budget which had to be spent lest the following year’s budget be cut; but rather than spend it on fixing errors, which would involve study and actual work, people decided to make something that the boss thinks would look cool.

I wonder, though, how many Taiwanese would even recognize this reads “Banciao” unless they had it specifically pointed out to them. A few months ago I spotted an innocent-looking teenager shopping with her mother. The girl was wearing a shirt with the following text:

'f uck you' written in black letter

Although it’s almost certain she would know both English words and understand their meaning together, I think it extremely unlikely she knew what words were on her shirt.

OK, let’s have a closer look at the signs themselves.
detail of signs discussed in this post

Here we have

  • “Zhongzheng” (Hanyu Pinyin)
  • “Simen” and “Banciao” (Tongyong Pinyin for what would be “Ximen” and “Banqiao” in Hanyu Pinyin)
  • “Panchial” (bastardized Wade-Giles of “Panchiao” plus a typo, for what would be “Banqiao” in Hanyu Pinyin)

And then there’s the matter of “The Lin’s Family Residence At Panchail,” which would be much better written simply “Lin Family Residence” or by the most commonly used English name “Lin Family Gardens.”

So that’s three romanization systems, a typo, and clumsy English on official signage at just one corner — to say nothing of how relatively small the alphabetic text is. And there’s no solution in sight.

Mandarin teaching in Thailand: Taiwanese teachers choosing Hanyu Pinyin

The following quote sums up a recent article on Taiwanese who are teaching Mandarin at universities in Thailand:

jiùsuàn yǒu lǎoshī cǎiyòng ㄅㄆㄇ jiāoxué, zuìzhōng háishi huíguī dào Hànyǔ Pīnyīn, zhìyú Tōngyòng Pīnyīn, gēnběn méiyǒu rén shǐyòng.

(Even if some teachers employ bopo mofo in [the early stages of] their teaching, they still ultimately revert to Hanyu Pinyin. As for Tongyong Pinyin, essentially no one uses it.)

In the penultimate paragraph, a teacher takes what for traditional Chinese education is often seen as a radical position: content over form.

“Wǒmen kěyǐ yòng Hànyǔ Pīnyīn, yòng fántǐzì qù tuīxíng Táiwān wénhuà, zhè shì bu chōngtū de. Wǒ yòng jiǎntǐzì jiǎng Táiwān, dàjiā dōu rènshi Táiwān le, wǒmen yòng Hànyǔ Pīnyīn jièshào Táiwān, dàjiā dōu rènshi Táiwān le.”

(”We can use Hanyu Pinyin and traditional Chinese characters to promote Taiwan culture; these are not conflicting. I use simplified Chinese characters to talk about Taiwan; everyone learned about Taiwan. We use Hanyu Pinyin to introduce Taiwan; everyone learned about Taiwan.”)

In the final paragraph, the reporter editorializes along the same lines. (Editorializing in news articles is a common practice here.) It’s perhaps worthy of note that this comes from what was until recently a KMT-run television network — one that remains very “blue.”

Here’s the whole article:

Táiwān nèibù, jīhū měigé yīzhènzi, jiùyào chūxiàn guānyú “wénzì” de yìshi xíng tài zhēngzhí, bāokuò jiǎntǐzì fántǐzì, bāokuò Tōngyòng Pīnyīn yǔ Hànyǔ Pīnyīn. Hǎoxiàng yòng hé dàlù bù yīyàng de xìtǒng, jiùshì ài Táiwān, jiùshì tūxiǎn Táiwān zhǔtǐ yìshi.

Rán’ér, zhè duì ài Táiwān zhēn de yǒu bāngzhù ma? Duì qiánghuà Táiwān zhǔtǐ yìshi zhēn de yǒu bāngzhù ma?

Zhè shì zài Tàiguó dàxué lǐ, xuéshengmen shàng Zhōngwén kè de qíngkuàng. Suīrán méiyǒu tǒngyī de jiàocái, dàn dàduōshù de lǎoshī shǐyòng de háishi jiǎntǐ Zhōngwén bǎnběn, jiāo de yěshì Hànyǔ Pīnyīn.

Rajamangala Kējì Dàxué Zhōngwén kèchéng zhǔrèn Fú Cuì-lán lǎoshī jiù zhíyán, wèile zài Tàiguó tuīdòng Huáyǔ kèchéng, tā duì Huáyǔ lǎoshī de yāoqiú zhǐyǒu yī ge, jiùshì shǐyòng jiǎntǐ Zhōngwén: “Xiànzài wǒmen yī shuōdào Hànyǔ, tāmen jiù shuō bù xué, juéde Hànyǔ hěn nán, wǒ yào jiéshù zhèige gàiniàn, bāng tā mànmàn de xuéxí, ràng tā zhīdao Hànyǔ bù shì hěn nán de, kěyǐ xué de.”

Shìshíshàng duì dàduōshù de Tàiguó xuésheng láishuō, xuéxí Zhōngwén de dònglì shì yīnwèi Zhōngwén zhújiàn biànchéng qiángshì yǔyán, gōutōng duì tāmen ér yán zuì zhòngyào. Xiàofāng de kǎoliáng bù nán lǐjiě.

Zhìyú pīnyīn fāngshì jiù gèng bùyòng shuō le, jiùsuàn yǒu lǎoshī cǎiyòng ㄅㄆㄇ jiāoxué, zuìzhōng háishi huíguī dào Hànyǔ Pīnyīn, zhìyú Tōngyòng Pīnyīn, gēnběn méiyǒu rén shǐyòng.

Wālái’ālōnggōng huángjiā dàxué (ed.: Walailak University) de Zhōngwén lǎoshī Liú Yǎ-píng shuōchū tā de kǎoliáng: “Zhīqián méiyǒu xiān jiāo ㄅㄆㄇ, tāmen zhíjiē jiēchù Hànyǔ Pīnyīn, jiù huì bèi Yīngwén de niàn fǎ wùdǎo, suǒyǐ hòulái zhǐyào líng chéngdu, wǒ jiù huì xiān jiāo ㄅㄆㄇ, bǎ fāyīn wěnzhù, wěnzhù zhīhòu jiù zhuǎn guòlai jiāo Hànyǔ Pīnyīn, bìjìng Hàn pīn zhēn de shì xiànzài Ōu-Měi guójiā, bǐjiào pǔbiàn de gōngjù.”

Lìngyī wèi yóu Tái-Shī-Dà péixùn qiánwǎng Tàiguó jiāo Zhōngwén de lǎoshī Lín Hóng-zhèng yě zhǐchū, gāng dào Tàiguó shí, yǒu xǔduō Zhōngwén lǎoshī duìyú gāi shǐyòng Hànyǔ Pīnyīn háishi Tōngyòng Pīnyīn ér zhēngzhá, dàjiā zuìhòu dōu xuǎnzé le Hànyǔ Pīnyīn. Bìjìng guójì dà huánjìng shǐyòng de shì Hànyǔ Pīnyīn, tāmen bùnéng ràng Tàiguó xuésheng xuéxí yī tào bùnéng yòng de pīnyīn xìtǒng. Lín Hóng-zhèng yě rènwéi, shǐyòng nǎ yī tào xìtǒng, qíshí gēnběn bìngbù zhòngyào: “Yòng Hànyǔ Pīnyīn jiùshì hóngmàozi jiùshì róng gòng, zhè gēnběn méiyǒu guānxi. Wǒmen kěyǐ yòng Hànyǔ Pīnyīn, yòng fántǐzì qù tuīxíng Táiwān wénhuà, zhè shìbu chōngtū de. Wǒ yòng jiǎntǐzì jiǎng Táiwān, dàjiā dōu rènshi Táiwān le, wǒmen yòng Hànyǔ Pīnyīn jièshào Táiwān, dàjiā dōu rènshi Táiwān le.”

Cóng Tàiguó tuīdòng Huáyǔ kèchéng de jīngyàn lái kàn, guónèi jìnxíng Hànyǔ Pīnyīn Tōngyòng Pīnyīn zhīlèi de zhēngbiàn, qíshí xiāngdāng kěxiào. Yóuqí xiàng Táiwān zhèyàng yī ge xiǎo dǎoguó, zhèngfǔ lǎoshi xiǎngzhe zhèngmíng, xiǎngzhe yào yǔ Zhōngguó dàlù qūgé de xìtǒng, bùguò ràng zìjǐ de guójì kōngjiān gèngwéi xiá’ài. Zěnyàng cáinéng ràng Táiwān zǒu chūqu, nándào zhèxiē yǔ qítā guójiā hùdòng de jīngyàn, hái bù zúyǐ gěi diǎn jǐngxùn ma?

source: Cóng Tàiguó tuīdòng Huáyǔ kèchéng kàn guónèi Huáyǔ yìshi xíng tài zhī zhēng (從泰國推動華語課程看國內華語意識型態之爭), 中廣新聞網 (BCC), March 3, 2007

Gaoxiong receives funding to upgrade the city’s English

The government of Gaoxiong (Kaohsiung) has recently secured funding from the Executive Yuan to

  • waste on so-called translation agencies that wouldn’t know real English if it bit them on the ass,
  • print up some signs on which the English is so small as to be almost unusable,
  • put up even more signs in a romanization system few people know but many think is ridiculous at best,
  • um, create an “English-friendly environment” in advance of the World Games, which will be held in the city in 2009.

The stories didn’t mention how much money will be involved in this. The project will be headed by the recently promoted Xǔ Lì-míng (許立明 / Xu Liming / Hsu Li-ming).

Let’s all hope the city does a much better job than is to be expected from past experience throughout Taiwan.

sources:

Gaoxiong (Kaohsiung) MRT

Looking through Hao’s photos (linked to in his comment on yesterday’s post) reminded me that the MRT system in Gaoxiong is at least partially open. Since Gaoxiong is in Tongyong land, and since the signage there mixes romanization and English, and since no tone marks are given, I thought I’d share with everyone these Hanyu Pinyin guides I just made.

Here are the stations of the Gaoxiong subway system as given in Hanyu Pinyin (with tone marks), Hanyu Pinyin and English, Chinese characters, and Tongyong Pinyin and English:

See also Hao’s photos of the KMRT.

I don’t know Gaoxiong well, having been there only once, so if I got the word parsing for any of the stations wrong, please let me know.